E2/E3 memory cards

Discuss Nikon E2, E3 (incl. Fujix DS-505, 515 and 56x models), the original Nikon D1 and other discontinued Nikon DSLRs. Ask questions, post general comments, anecdotes, reviews and user tips.
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Stan Disbrow
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E2/E3 memory cards

Post by Stan Disbrow »

Hi,

I know this will be an issue for anyone that gets one of these older units, so here's what you need to know.

The E-seires bodies use what is known as High-Speed ATA Flash memory in a full-sized PCMCIA (aka PC-Card) form factor.

So far, that sounds easy enough and most folks think that they can use a Compact Flash card in a PCMCIA adapter. However, they won't work. The E-series need 5-volt cards, and all the CF cards out there these days are 3.3v.

Now, I know what you're thinking, that the CF cards ought to work for both logic levels. This is true, however, there are a set of voltage pins on the PCMCIA cards that get set to show if they are 3.3v or 5v as well as the speed they run at, and all of the CF card adapters I know don't assert both the 5v pin *and* the High-Speed pin.

Also, the E-series cameras have a 128 MB memory limit. This is a hard limit for the entire camera system, and some of that address space is used for other things. So, the PCMCIA card limit is 96 MB as a result. You can't use larger cards and ignore the extra space. I tried that once and unfortunately the camera knew that the card was larger, and it couldn't use it, and errored out on me. :(

These days, the only good place to find 5v, PCMCIA, Hi-Speed, ATA Flash cards 96 MB and smaller is on eBay. That's both good and bad, since many sellers don't properly describe what they have in the way of ancient memory cards. I have found that it is entirely possible to go through lots of cards (usually sold in lots) to find the right ones. That's the bad part, but the good part is that these old things don't usually sell for much money.

Unless, of course, it's one of those 15 MB cards with the Nikon name on it. In that case, I have found that the price tag can be way out of line!

Stan
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Re: E2/E3 memory cards

Post by NikonWeb »

Stan Disbrow wrote:there are a set of voltage pins on the PCMCIA cards that get set to show if they are 3.3v or 5v as well as the speed they run at, and all of the CF card adapters I know don't assert both the 5v pin *and* the High-Speed pin.
So it's not really a card compatibility issue after all? Sounds more like a PCMCIA adapter design issue?

Jarle
Stan Disbrow
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Card Compatibility

Post by Stan Disbrow »

Hi,

Well, the adapter is more of a pin mapping device than anything. It contains no intellegence, meaing logic. All it really does is stick the signals from the CF card pins to the right pins for it to be a PCMCIA decive. The intellegence is carried onboard the CF card itself.

It's the oldest story in electronics. Originally, the actual memory devices themselves, what we call the 'die', were of such a size that the PCMCIA card was as small as we could go and still fit the things. As time went on, the dies became smaller, what we call 'die shrink', and it became possible to fit the things into a smaller container - the CF card.

As that was going on, the logic world was changing from 5 volt to 3.3 volt levels. This allows for faster clocking speeds since the waveforms don't have to 'pump' as much energy as they travel from the '0' state to the '1' state. Anyway, by the time the CF card came out, the logic levels had changed and there would be no devices that used CF form factor memory that would be 5 volts......

Now, you can see the trap as if you were peering at it through the viewfinder of the E2. :P

Yep. The CF card does not provide the signal we need, so it's not passed through the PCMCIA adapter to the E2, so the E2 won't see the memory as being useful, and so there we are.

It's actually all part of planned obsolesence on the part of the companies that make equipment. We quite often pull stunts like this, thinking about the possible issues and then deciding that the correct answer is to simply say 'upgrade' for the few complaints we'll get.

Not to say that I like working that way, but such decisions are always made from the point of view of the 'business' and not the POV of the engineer. :(

Stan
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Brian Sweeney
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Post by Brian Sweeney »

Given the price of PCMCIA ATA memory cards these days (CHEAP), this may be mute; Has anyone tried to jumper an adapter card to supply the signal to the camera?
Stan Disbrow
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That can be done

Post by Stan Disbrow »

Hi,

It's hardly worth the effort, though. It's tough to get the metal cover back over the board. They're meant to be assembled in the factory and not removed.

Anyway, once this is done, you're still off looking for old CF cards that are smaller than 128 MB. I know of no way to raise the memory limit in the camera.

I think that as long as there are piles of the proper PCMCIA memory cards on eBay for little money, no one will need to make this particular modification.

Stan
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Re: E2/E3 memory cards

Post by NikonWeb »

Stan Disbrow wrote:So, the PCMCIA card limit is 96 MB as a result. You can't use larger cards and ignore the extra space. I tried that once and unfortunately the camera knew that the card was larger, and it couldn't use it, and errored out on me.
Hi Stan,

What errored out on you? The card or the camera? You couldn't make it work again? (if so, it sounds like a serious issue)

Jarle
Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow »

Hi,

Just gave the generic card error and would not function until I replace the wrong card with the correct one.

It's not something that causes damage, it just won't work. The firmware in the camera is just too smart for us. ;)

Stan
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Brian Sweeney
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Post by Brian Sweeney »

The E3 is working properly, ie Format, Store, and retrieve with my WinME Laptop, .jpg files on a "simpletech 256MByte Compact Flash" card in a generic "Dazzle CompactFlash" adapter.

EDIT: The same card and adapter DID work in the DCS420c AFTER upgrading the firmware to the last release, dated 1998. It did not work with the 1997 firmware. The card is formatted as FAT-16, and I use it in the D1 as well.
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128 MB CF-card in DS-565

Post by NikonWeb »

Formatting an old 'Twinmos' 128 MB CF-card as FAT (i.e. NOT FAT32) under Windows XP, I've successfully used it with my DS-565 (using a Canon PCMCIA adapter).

This is great news! I'm no longer limited to the small 40 MB card that came with the camera. I've not yet tested this card with the E2N.

However, this combination will not work with my DCS 420. The camera will correctly report xx number of images left, and count down as I press the shutter button. Everything seems to work, but no files are recorded. Strange. To make sure it wasn't a camera issue, I did the same test with the 40 MB PCMCIA card. No problems.

I guess you should carefully test every card you want to use in these old cameras.

UPDATE: The 128 MB card will NOT work with the older E2N. See post below for more details.

Jarle
Last edited by NikonWeb on Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow »

Hi,

Yes, testing all cards with all cameras is probably the only practical way to know what will work and what will not these days.

We have to keep in mind that the memory cards are, and have always been, constantly evolving. So, the developers of the devices that use them have had to constantly modify their code to keep pace.

Just look at the current issue that the Lexar 4 GB, 80x CF cards have with the Canon 1D-II and 1Ds-II - they're intermittently losing photos on folks. Both Canon *and* Lexar have had to change their microcode (showing my IBM roots here - aka 'firmware') to correct the issue. Canon's changes allow 'old' Lexar cards to work, and Lexar's changes allow 'new' cards to work in cameras with old code......

The way I see it, the E2 and E2s will be the most restrictive while the E2N and E2Ns will allow a greater range of cards. The E3 and E3s, which are the newest, will allow even more.

Kodak had an end-loser (what I call the poor folks that buy these things - a play on 'end-user') method for code upgrades, but I never have tripped across one for the Nikon/Fuji cameras. I bet dollars to donuts that the E-series was like the D1 series - you gotta send it into the factory service shop if you want new code.

I'm certain that if we had every revision of the PCMCIA and CF memory card standards and sorted the cameras by production date that we could figure out exactly which cards would work with which camera. Given the rate with which these 'standards' change, *I* would not want to be the poor lunkhead that had to sit there and sort! :P

So, the practical way to handle this is to buy piles of cards off of eBay on the cheap and then test 'em all in each camera as we get it. ;)

Later!

Stan
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Brian Sweeney
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Post by Brian Sweeney »

Just to add: my Sandisk (128mb) and PNY CF (64MByte and 256MByte) cards are also working. I also put the Sandisk into the DCS420C, which recognizes it . These cards were bought last month, and are still current. I suspect that the last firmware release for the Kodak fixed the earlier problems. If you do not have a SCSI connection for your DCS, do a hex dump of the .tif on the first few hundred bytes to find the firmware date. The 1997 firmware is a problem, the 1998 release fixed it in my camera. You need the SCSI setup to update it.
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DS-565 compatible CF cards

Post by NikonWeb »

As previously reported, my DS-565 (E3S) works with a 128 MB TwinMOS card in a Canon PCMCIA adapter.

Much to my surprise, it also works with a 512 MB Ridata card (no special formatting or anything -- the card came straight from a Nikon D100)!

A 1 GB Ridata card did not work.

Tested the same cards (128 and 512 MB) with the older E2N -- none of them worked.

Jarle
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